Does Ephesians 2:8 mean we can be saved without good works?
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misty0408
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 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| I think that answer spills over into the "once saved always saved" theory as well. What St. Paul is telling us here is that we cannot "do" anything to be saved. We are not deserving of salvation and no one can "do" anything that will gain them salvation. Jesus Christ saves us through his sacrifice and the grace of God is what saves us. But, understanding this does not mean we can then sit back and thing we've got it all. Faith is a journey, not a one time thing. Jesus tells us to "seek" and "knock" ...these are actions. We are to continue to move towards him in faith and in love. As we journey on, our works are the expression of our faith. As our faith deepens and God reveals himself to us, our works will be the obvious outcome of our faith. So, faith without works is dead because it means you have stopped actively seeking God. We are never done. We should always be moving, carrying our cross and following him. |
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brother_dave001
Yahoo User
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| The problem with most human thinking is that each tend to simplistically take one extreme or the other. Reality is more complex, elliptic and multi-colored; not simple, not linear, not "black or white" only, and not "gray only". Reality is more as the 1-3-7-infinite rainbow -- one rainbow of three primary colors of seven main colors of an infinity of tiny color (frequency) differences.People argue over "creation or evolution" as much or more as this confusion here over "faith or works only".BOTH are right, depending on the time period being considered in our eternal ascension into all perfection and then Eternal Paradise Residence and Father-Infinite God finding in and with Jesus Christ our Sovereign savior.Faith is a free Gift from God. No one works to "make faith". If you use this free Gift of faith just a little bit, to slighly believe, even 2nd-hand from another human's message, that you have a loving and saving Father God by any name you use, (God I AM is above all name and number; and a Rose by any other name is still a Rose) you should take your salvation at physical death up into a higher Heaven FOR GRANTED ! Yes, freely Granted by our loving and merciful Creator Father-Son Jesus Christ ! See and believe fully John 12:32; JESUS IS all the Power of GOD to transform and save each and all humans who each personally desire such a tremendous FREE GIFT !Now, let's also add this sad but real truth: "All humans (except Jesus Christ when Incarnate here) have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory (All Perfection) of GOD."All saved Divine-potential Humans today are STILL SINNERS ! For example, If you have ever said or thought: "gosh", "gee", "hell", "damn", "hot (sexy) body" of anyone other than your married husband or wife in private, or "party animal" or "blood sacrifice" a thousand other vile terms, you are a terrible sinner ! Yes, there are thousands of other more serious sins, and a few worse, more serious iniquities; but I am not going to bring them up here. That would take many thousands of pages of fine 6 point text ! So now we are (hopefully) at the conclusion that we are here and now, Saved sinners ! and the "good works" are almost none compared to what we will be doing in another trillion years or more in the ever higher Heavens on our very long, ever more Glorious, Journey of Perfection Destiny with/in our Master-Teacher-Friend Jesus Christ into the Father God of ALL Reality on infinite, eternal Paradise !All humans are freely Saved and Transformed slowly or suddenly (often both !) by the loving and merciful nature of our Father-Son-Spirit GOD-MAN JESUS here flooding continuously down with these Sacred Love-Mercy-Ministry Gifts upon ALL FLESH ! See now and believe John 16:7-16. Thank You, and thank you, too.God sees us timelessly; and He Knows perfectly well that those beloved Humans who do now,or will later, accept this free eternal Life in God's Light Salvation, will later on, in some next higher Heavens, begin to start to desire more fully the Glorious DOING of GOD's perfect will by sharing the fruits of the Spirit with all others, or as some say: "Doing Good Works". A few humans here actually do a tiny amount of good works, and then go on an ungodly ego trip over same ! "Hey ! Look at ME !! and ME, MYSELF and I, too !!" (I'm sorry, saying, or even quoting, "Hey" is a sin or error too. Would Jesus ever say, or even quote, "Hey" ? No.)But Jesus loves me and has shown me (in AD1977 and Eternal Now) a glimpse of my Final Destiny on Paradise in the Father-Infinite I AM and Jesus Christ as ONE I AM here ... and more ... all ineffable --beyond words -- too Sacred a living personal and ongoing experience to reduce to mere word symbols.Let us all pray to seek to know and to do God's will in/as Jesus here with us in Spirit !! and not worry about measuring the magnitude or quality of "good works." No Human can really kjnow that here; as we are not God, and not even perfect yet by more than 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% if that much.It is a sad shame that the New Testament is more about Paul and his experiences and mostly finite views, and not about the ALL PERFECT Godly-Manly Life and Eternal Teachings of our Good Master - Father- Savior-Friend-Elder Brother JESUS as Son of Man as well as Son of God and gloriously much more ! But Jesus Christ is fully here in Spirit and He comes down into our souls and minds to elevate and continually Transform us without end if we so desire Him --even just a little bit, or (far better) wholeheartedly ! Amen !Peace and progress,Brother Dave, a Jesusonian Christian Truthisthttp://www.PureChristians.org/ Gospel enlarging website,proclaiming worldwide the True ReligionOF JESUS and ABOUT JESUS and IN JESUSCome and share ! |
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δοῦλον δὲ κυÏ
Yahoo User
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh my, You err once again in exegesis. Let me help you with a little Greek. The phrase you have been saved comes from the Greek participle σεσῳσμÎνοι. This is a perfect passive 3rd person. Now what this means is that as a passive, it is something that has been done to you without your assistance. The perfect means that it is in a perpetual state of being true. Furthermore, it means that this state of being cannot be reversed.Your "proof text" in Mt. 7 is saying precisely the opposite of what you are reading into it. Jesus tells you himself what he means. Who are the ones he sends away? The ones who he did not know. Now the word knew in 7:23 is ἔγνων and is a second Aorist which means a completed action.The word is is a Hebrew idiom for the most intimate of relationships. The verb tense is telling you that this relationship was never consummated in the intimate way that happens when we accept his sacrifice and acknowledge him as Lord. He is sending away those who foolishly believed they could be holy enough without him. |
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Geri
Yahoo User
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| I think that our Lord Jesus makes it very plain and so does his disciple, James, that not only must you have faith, but that good works are essential. For example, when Jesus' family came to see him and a crowd was in the way, he was told that his mother and brothers wanted to see him. He made two things clear here: a biological relationship doesn't save you (so being born a Jew won't do it) and salvation requires two conditions: "My mother and my brothers are those who HEAR the word of God and PUT IT INTO PRACTICE." Luke 8:21In the parable of the good Samaritan, it wasn't the priest and Levite who were commended for their faith, but the Samaritan who went out of his way to love his enemy.In the parable of the talents (Matt. 25:14-30), the guy who buried his was thrown into the darkness to weep and nash his teeth. Sure doesn't sound like salvation or heaven to me! In the verses following that parable, the Lord speaks of the final judgment. What is he judging? The works, not the faith!James makes it plain without a parable: James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.You are deluded if you think it is just faith. Faith merely opens the door. You must enter and serve. That takes works. |
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