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Are Sighns and Wonders for Today?

 
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Allen C
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Are Sighns and Wonders for Today? Reply with quote

1. The Bible records no supernatural miracles or healings after Acts 28 (around 55-60 AD). 2. Paul told Timothy to take wine for his many sicknesses (1 Tim 5:23). Why wouldn’t Paul just heal his brother? 3. Paul departed from Trophimus and left him sick (2 Tim 4:20). Why wouldn’t Paul just heal his co-worker? 4. Hebrews Chapter 2, which speaks of signs & wonders confirming the spoken word of God, was written in the past tense. 5. Paul prayed 3 times for a healing of his fleshly ailment and was denied. God said His grace was sufficient enough for Paul. 6. Ephesians 2:20 states that the miracle-working apostles were only the “foundation” of the church. A foundation is just that - a foundation. If it continued, it would not be a foundation any longer. 7. Two later epistles, Romans and Ephesians, speak extensively about spiritual gifts. However the miraculous gifts such as tongues and healing were not even mentioned. 8. In Matt 8:16-17 Jesus healed many demon-possessed people. Matthew stated Jesus’ miracles were to fulfill what was spoken by Isaiah, not to recover good physical health. They were used as a divine demonstration that He was the Messiah. 9. Only the apostles possessed miraculous ability, and those to whom they imparted the gifts (Acts.19:6,7; Romans 1:11; 2 Corinthians 12:12). The gifts were never given to the extended church body. 10. James 5:16 states to “pray” for one another that you may be healed. 11. In Philippians 2:25-30, Epaphroditus was very ill while with Paul in Rome. He went on a 3 month journey and arrived at the point of death. There was no healing for Epaphroditus. He went on 3 more journeys over the next year to help in delivering the letter to the Philippians. He was still sick unto death. God was merciful for his own purpose in Epaphroditus’ sickness. 12. In John 9, the disciples asked Jesus why a man was born blind. Jesus said the man was born blind not because of sin but so that God’s work (salvation) would be manifest in him. The miracle healing would serve only to “illustrate” salvation. 13. John stated Jesus’ miracles were to confirm the word which He preached. He stated that he wrote about Jesus’ miracles (past tense) so that people would believe. Why would he not state that they were “still continuing” so that people would believe? 14. There is no evidence of tongue-speaking after Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians. Tongues are not mentioned in any other church nor by any other writer - neither Peter, nor James, nor John, nor Jude. 15. In 96 AD, Clement, Bishop of Rome, wrote 65 chapters and did not once mention speaking in tongues. The works of early church fathers such as Chrysostom and Augustine also indicated the gift of tongues had ceased already. 16. When speaking in tongues ceased at the end of the apostolic age, it did not reappear for the next 1850 years and subsequently became widespread with the birth of Pentecostalism around the year 1900. Speaking in tongues was virtually unheard of in the mainline denominations (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) until the 1960’s. 17. The Bible does not state there would be miracles, signs or tongue-speaking in the last days. However there is an abundance of biblical evidence which says there will be false prophets and lying wonders in the last days. (Matt 7:22-23; 24:11, 24:24, Mark 13:6; 13:22; Luke 21:8; 21:35; 2Thes 2:9-12; 1Tim 4:1, Rev 13:13-14) 18. Why did God write so extensively about speaking in tongues in only 3 chapters (1 Corinthians 12-14) of the entire New Testament? Could he be using tongues as a divine testing program for the end-times church? 19. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 states tongues shall cease ... when that which is perfect is come“. The Greek word for cease (pauo) means to stop permanently and on its own. The word perfect (teleios) means “complete”. This verse was written approximately 35 years before the completion of the Bible. Paul is stating the need for tongues would be ended. There was no further need of tongues once God’s “written” word was completed. 20. Jesus even minimized the importance of miracles when he told the 70 disciples “rejoice not” in the power of their miracles but rather that they are saved. 21. Revelation 22:18 - in the last chapter of the last book of God’s word to us, He states there is to be no more divine revelation. God is bound by his own word just as we are. He would never violate his own word. He would not want us to either.
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ANARCHY WILL SET U=FREE!!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can't read!
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PatTexas
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

17. cough! <<<<Benny Hinn>>>> cough!
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enamel
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valid question...valid answer!
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somethingtrinity
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I know is that I believed in Jesus to heal me and it has happened and I have seen outward miracles take place. I know it is for today, we need it so much. I was even healed at one of Benny Hinn's crusade. Benny does not heal, God does.
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tammy m
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes
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KAR
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. That's about as the most recent events in the Bible! But a lot of miracles have happened since then! Just ask a Christian who has experienced a miracle!2. He used it for medicinal purposes, and the event of healing was only intended to strengthen the faith of others. Obviously it wasn't for His glory to constantly have miracles taking place, if no one would be particularly blessed anyway!3. Sometimes God allows us to get sick to humble us. If we were constantly just healed every time something happened to us, it might not necessarily be for our best spiritual good. We might become prideful and think we were "like God"--like lucifer. 4. OK. So, those signs were given to strengthen our faith in the Word of God. And He continues to give us these encouragements from time to time today as well.5. God wants us to rely on Him. Sometimes are ailments are blessings in disguise; they help us to empathize with others and stay humble.6. That text is not saying that the miracles were the foundation, but rather the apostles. Take a look again.7. Each chapter in the Bible is not a complete chronicle of God's gifts. Look at the WHOLE bible. The various parts of the Bible were not for one time and some for a later time. We never find that, except for the blood sacrifices that are no longer necessary because Jesus was the fulfillment of that symbolism.8. Um, wrong assumption. Christ loves us and desires to heal all of us. Christ wanted to heal them physically, but it wasn't merely the physical that Christ was interested in , but the spiritual. He healed the physical ailments to point people to the scriptures being fulfilled in order to strengthen their faith and turn them to God. 9. The gifts of raising the dead or other "special" gifts were entrusted to the leader's of Christ's church. Yes. God believes in respect for his leadership on earth.10. Yup. But it says that it is a "righteous" man's prayer avails much. We need to be right with God to pray for our friends. And our prayers are not commands to God, they are requests for His will to be executed.11.
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www.peacebyjesus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will not fully refute your extensive compilation of reasons here, though i could, suffice to say that your evidence is wanting, and your attempt to give God a sabbatical rest, or a dispensational leave is unwarranted. God has always healed throughout the Bible, from Moses to Elisha, though certainly sometimes at more times than others.And the reason that you do not see miracles after Acts 28 is likely do to the fact that is the last chapter in the record of the early church, and thus we also see no baptisms (have they ceased?). And miracles decreased later in Acts as the context changed from Paul's active ministry to his captivity. Yet yet even in Acts 28 we see miracles. In addition, it was not only apostles that did not miracles, as Phillip the evangelist in Acts 8:6 did so as well, and Paul testifies that the Corinthian church came behind in no gift (1:7).As for church fathers, if you look at some of the false doctrines that began to grow in the 2nd century (paedo baptism, cannibalizing Christ communion, .the papacy, etc) with them, despite their piety, you begin to see that it was not only apostolic gifts that ceased, but a type of darkness set in.I myself was a skeptic is still am of much that passes a miracles today. Yet, as i honestly sought the Lord I became convinced of the scriptures and by personal testimony that God can still do as He ever did.I myself suffered with a lower hernia for number of years, in which I could not lift up much more than 30 pounds without having to lay down to let it recede. And which did not get any better, and as far as I know they do not heal themselves. But after being prayed over by a humble couple at an evangelical church it is gone. I've since brought up refrigerators and washing machines up two flights of stairs (with a helper or 2), which I never could have come close to doing before.As for 1 Cor. 13, the completion of the canon of Scripture, as pure as it is, still does not result in us realizing the things that correspond to the coming of that which is perfect, which is not Christ per se, but the perfect revelation of Him. "but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1Jn. 3:2). And then i shall no longer see thru a glass, darkly, but i shall know even as i am known. To God be the glory.Yet the fact that God heals, does not mean He must, as suffering is not necessarily a curse, but an instrument for Godliness if need be.Nor is tongues necessary for salvation as some make it, yet neither is it necessarily prophetic as 1 cor. 14 it is a prayer language, yet even prophecy, as rare as it is amongst all the spurious ones, is not adding to the canon, and is not of the same universal authority, but true prophecy fulfills it. Though again, as in Corinth, charism's do not equal character, and the more carnal the Christian the more aberrations. Yet God did not remove His gifts from them, but regulated them. The law was added because of transgressions.Here are some links of testimonies of miracles that correspond to the claims of the object of the believers faith. I hope you will not attributed them to the devil.And if you think we do not need them today to give witness to the resurrection of Christ, just read the atheist's posts on this forum.http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/http://www.christian-faith.com/truestories.htmlhttp://www.shelovesgod.com/library/testimonies.cfmhttp://breadsite.org/topics.htm
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Retired Engineer
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is your key....1 Corinthians 13:8-10 states tongues shall cease ... when that which is perfect is come“. The Greek word for cease (pauo) means to stop permanently and on its own. The word perfect (teleios) means “complete”. This verse was written approximately 35 years before the completion of the Bible. Paul is stating the need for tongues would be ended. There was no further need of tongues once God’s “written” word was completed.When that which is perfect -- The Kingdom age -- When all the many religions of man, including Christianity, submit to God and Christ after all the proficies of the muchly edited and changed Bible has taken place. This world is in for a surprise, especially when almost every religious leader realizes that they have been wrong, and why, because they taught mans religion, including Christianity, instead of the teachings of Christ and Gods spiritual reality. We are all first a spiritual being with an eternal spirit, from eternity past unto eternity future, and a potentially eternal soul (what makes me me and you you), and a disposable physical body. Remember God has the power to separate the soul from the spirit in order to return the spirit back to him (the cosmic energy field that is a part of everything -- See Genesis for details) .
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